tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post4741089022889322517..comments2024-01-26T00:23:34.153-08:00Comments on historian at large: Was Hitler a Zionist? historian at largehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15352770429045660036noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-85851155435614073932018-01-31T11:03:39.219-08:002018-01-31T11:03:39.219-08:00Did Livingstone ever say "Hitler was a Zionis...Did Livingstone ever say "Hitler was a Zionist"? No he didn't. So by all means attack him for things he has said but just making things up and attacking those Aunt Sallys is pretty pathetic.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09704426794299784342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-52709260275306225572017-02-03T02:53:33.966-08:002017-02-03T02:53:33.966-08:00Very informative post this cleared a lot of confus...Very informative post this cleared a lot of confusions that were in my mind thanks for sharing this stuff also check <a href="https://www.funklist.com/facts-about-hitler/" rel="nofollow">Hitler Facts You Hardly Know Before Funklist</a>Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18246797729372072533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-63741554684802836912016-06-16T03:42:23.024-07:002016-06-16T03:42:23.024-07:00great article. it seems Ronaldold is saying that h...great article. it seems Ronaldold is saying that he would have TAKEN the £1000 paid by the Nazis to the jews to leave Germany. I thought the Nazis CHARGED the jews £1000, equivalent to the average life savings at the time ie so the Jews were left with nothingAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09912510778340959700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-86768408445984206912016-05-20T07:08:09.184-07:002016-05-20T07:08:09.184-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12574175023392558984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-11620099584292899882016-04-30T22:07:07.837-07:002016-04-30T22:07:07.837-07:00Frank Owen (29/4/2016) misinterpreted the position...Frank Owen (29/4/2016) misinterpreted the position of Ze'ev Jabotinsky: he was no autocrat (a pre-requisite for being a Fascist, let alone a Nazi), but - if anything - a liberal democrat. I expect that his assertion is based on Jabotinsky's use of the concept of legionism (armed self-defence, if you will), which is adopted so enthusiastically these days by assorted White Supremacist movements - as well as all the nation-states. Thus Betar movement, which he founded. There are no other similarities that I am aware of. I may be wrong, of course; I would welcome a factual argument.<br /><br />Regarding the Betar Naval Academy (in Civitavecchia): it did indeed exist, but that does signify that Jabotinsky - or Betar, or Revisionist Zionism - adopted Fascist philosophy in any form. To the contrary: cadets were specifically warned against it. Furthermore, it is worth remembering that Mussolini and Fascist movement (as distinct from Hitler and National Socialists) were not initially anti-Semitic. Indeed, in 1932 Mussolini said in an interview (I quote): “Antisemitism does not exist in Italy ... Italians of Jewish birth have shown themselves good citizens, and they fought bravely in the war. Many of them occupy leading positions in the universities, in the army, in the banks.” One does not have to be a Jew to understand what these words meant to Jews at the time...<br />A footnote: overt anti-Antisemitism came to Fascism in 1938 with the 'Manifest of Race' and promulgation of Leggi Raziali; that occurred after the Pact of Steel (with Germany) was concluded. <br /><br />Finally, as far as Jabotinsky's position on Arabs is concerned (he's being consistently accused of advocating a genocide, almost): it would be best to let him speak for himself. I quote from 'The Iron Wall', 1923:<br /><br />I am reputed to be an enemy of the Arabs, who wants to have them ejected from Palestine, and so forth. It is not true.<br /><br />Emotionally, my attitude to the Arabs is the same as to all other nations – polite indifference. Politically, my attitude is determined by two principles. First of all, I consider it utterly impossible to eject the Arabs from Palestine. There will always be two nations in Palestine – which is good enough for me, provided the Jews become the majority. And secondly, I belong to the group that once drew up the Helsingfors Programme , the programme of national rights for all nationalities living in the same State. In drawing up that programme, we had in mind not only the Jews, but all nations everywhere, and its basis is equality of rights.<br /><br />I am prepared to take an oath binding ourselves and our descendants that we shall never do anything contrary to the principle of equal rights, and that we shall never try to eject anyone. This seems to me a fairly peaceful credo.<br /><br />But it is quite another question whether it is always possible to realise a peaceful aim by peaceful means. For the answer to this question does not depend on our attitude to the Arabs, but entirely on the attitude of the Arabs to us and to Zionism.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09894049280322523762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-62841516132124837242016-04-30T13:15:54.744-07:002016-04-30T13:15:54.744-07:00'Barely' or 'astonishing' is nitpi...'Barely' or 'astonishing' is nitpicking, and in the context of the point being made unreasonable. It means that 5/6 went without it so it was hardly a decisive factor. And there's nothing 'astonishing' about people accepting £1000 for something, that for all we know they would have done anyway. If someone paid me £1000 to have left Nazi Germany I'd have taken it. If I'd had the money to travel I'd have gone for nothing and I'm not even Jewish. If on the other hand someone offered it to me under threat of smashing my shop windows I'd have jumped at it. This £1000 wasn't available to everyone. It was 'compensation' for the loss of their property. If anything about it is astonishing it will have been that people with property worth much more than £1000 were prepared to take it and go and live in a desert.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16405255188573001034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-10821590408617368462016-04-30T01:12:01.599-07:002016-04-30T01:12:01.599-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15004019921668931298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-76921049914538590102016-04-29T17:03:07.815-07:002016-04-29T17:03:07.815-07:00Zionism does not treat gentiles as second or third...Zionism does not treat gentiles as second or third class citizens.m1945https://www.blogger.com/profile/16563172480778755824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-89878107911038035412016-04-29T12:47:48.228-07:002016-04-29T12:47:48.228-07:00Livingstone would have been on much firmer ground ...Livingstone would have been on much firmer ground if he compared Revisionist Zionism to Italian fascism. Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism, was a big admirer of Mussolini, so much so he set up a Zionist naval base in fascist Italy called the Betar Naval Academy.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04415381930572380856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-23164424317218506422016-04-29T12:28:33.767-07:002016-04-29T12:28:33.767-07:00https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZUwiLY5nt4 speak ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZUwiLY5nt4 speak of thisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16721775376572751364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-30857820058769537232016-04-29T09:53:42.247-07:002016-04-29T09:53:42.247-07:00If Hitler was supportive of Zionism why did he pre...If Hitler was supportive of Zionism why did he prevent German Zionists from attending the Zionist Congress in 1933? And why, after the fall of France, did the Nazis adopt the Madagascar Plan? Those who support Zionism want Jews in Israel, not Madagascar!Geoff Shorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01042017416735030803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-90093222168474818012016-04-29T09:21:41.152-07:002016-04-29T09:21:41.152-07:00Drawing links between Jews/Zionism/Hitler is offen...Drawing links between Jews/Zionism/Hitler is offensive and it difficult to engage meaningfully with those who cannot grasp this simple point. In Ken's case yesterday, it wasn't even relevant to the issue and didn't advance the debate at all. What point was he actually trying to make? That Nazis supported Zionism so being anti Zionist can't be anti-Semitic? <br /><br />We see this repeated here by the brave "Unknown" with his "lebensraum" dig, but why pick on Israel for this one? Political Zionism arose in a time of nationalism worldwide and other nation states have shared these very same characteristics, as do modern liberation movements for self determination. Do the Kurds want Lebensraum? Do the Palestinian people? What these peoples/ethnic groups all seek is a homeland of their own, exercising self government. The new state need not be exclusive to the group concerned but usually envisages that the group will represent a majority in the country eventually created. That is what the Jewish people wanted also. That is Zionism. <br /><br />Anti-zionists frequently seek to distinguish Zionism from these other movements for national liberation and self determination on the basis that the concept should not extend to religious groups. They also then define "Jewish" and the Jewish state in purely religious terms, but the reality is much more complex. Jews are of course in part a religion, and the religion is so bound to the history and culture that it is difficult if not impossible to totally unravel it, yet there are avowed Jewish and Israeli-Jewish atheists who simply don't fit the description. The early socialist-zionist kibbutzniks (many fleeing the anti-semitism that continued after the Russian revolution) included many who had utterly abandoned religion. Being Jewish is not simply a religion, it is that in part and it is a culture, a shared history, traditions, a language. <br /><br />To complicate matters further, after nearly 70 years since the establishment of the modern state of Israel there are now multiple generations of Israeli-Jews who know no other country and to whom all talk of 'should Israel exist?' is not an interesting ideological debate but a challenge to their existence, offering an intellectual support to the rather more direct threat posed by many in the region who would rather see the land of Israel (or Palestine) Jew-free .<br /><br />To complicate matters further, after nearly 70 years since the establishment of the modern state of Israel we now have multiple generations of Israeli-Jews who know no other country and to whom all talk of 'should Israel exist?' is not an interesting ideological debate but a challenge to their existence, offering an intellectual support to the rather more direct threat posed by many in the region who would rather see the land of Israel (or Palestine) Jew-free .<br /><br />The Israeli declaration of Independence sought to be clear on the direction intended for the country: at paragraph 13, is states the State of Israel would be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex". <br /><br />Modern political Zionism was kick-started by Herzl's reaction to the anti-semitism of the infamous Dreyfus affair in France (see Zola "J'accuse"). Hitler wanted the Jews dead. All of them, in Germany and out. Hitler was no Zionist, and whatever footnote Livingstone produces of collaboration, from an avowed anti-Zionist, is ultimately a distraction, one tiny and atypical piece of a complex story endlessly repeated by those seeking to undermine Israel's legitimacy as a modern state. We could also talk of the Socialist Zionists from the youth movement Dror in Poland who led the Warsaw ghetto uprising. No collaboration there.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09393728480394893280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-81011689640158749212016-04-29T07:38:21.743-07:002016-04-29T07:38:21.743-07:00To Uknown above:
Sure, and any group of friends me...To Uknown above:<br />Sure, and any group of friends meeting regularly at the local pub for a beer have much in common with that too.commonsensehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14443070194041595848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-27299850005918962692016-04-29T07:24:19.498-07:002016-04-29T07:24:19.498-07:00You could argue that Hitler was a Zionist in the s...You could argue that Hitler was a Zionist in the sense that there is much common ground in the concepts of Zionism and German national socialism. Both are seeking a lebensraum or living space for a racially defined group. Both view it as natural to treat others also residing in this space as second or third class citizens. There are other similarities too. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03103667950285319593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-56072790219263987022016-04-29T03:27:28.546-07:002016-04-29T03:27:28.546-07:00Afraid so - in the two elections in 1932, the Nazi...Afraid so - in the two elections in 1932, the Nazis emerged as the largest party in the Reichstag, but fell short of a majority. Hitler, therefore, was not elected. He was appointed Chancellor in January 1933 by the president (Hindenburg) to head a coalition government. historian at largehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15352770429045660036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-47857290898527592132016-04-29T03:16:36.609-07:002016-04-29T03:16:36.609-07:00I thought AH WAS elected at some point. Am I wrong...I thought AH WAS elected at some point. Am I wrong about that?worldcupgibbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16181073365610096992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-56688250238805668162016-04-29T01:56:33.336-07:002016-04-29T01:56:33.336-07:00Good point, thanksGood point, thankshistorian at largehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15352770429045660036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1142711256856792923.post-36422729490834151022016-04-29T01:43:53.916-07:002016-04-29T01:43:53.916-07:00I think the obvious point to make is that Zionism ...I think the obvious point to make is that Zionism isn't based on a loathing of Jews - quite the opposite. That’s why the words about Hitler 'supporting Zionism' caused outrage.Steve Peershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05869161329197244113noreply@blogger.com